Wednesday, July 11, 2007

THAT girl


Can't a woman WITH self esteem like the occasional no-strings-attached "romance???"

Why is self-worth always equated with a person's sexual appetite???
This is only ONE aspect of their character, yet it seems to continually define who women are.

I don't think it's necessarily the act itself that gets a woman "attached" to a man.

It depends on the frequency, what else comes along with it, and mixed messages...

23 comments:

Anonymous said...

when i see a debate like this, it makes me realize how so many people don't understand how significantly their perception of reality has been shaped by artificial social constructs.

artificial social constructs...

MAN-MADE social constructs.

promiscuous women are characterized as having "low self-esteem" because MEN WANT THEM TO FEEL THAT WAY.

it's simple psychology: men want to have sex with lots of women. and men don't want those women to have sex with ANY OTHER MAN. so they create a social tenet that equates female promiscuity with low self-worth, low self-esteem, slutiness, etc...

but in reality a woman's self-esteem has nothing to do with it. to think that way is to view reality with an archaic, male-chauvinistic perspective.

btw, i am a man, saying this.

Chrissie said...

Ah! The ol' social constructs argument... I LOVE this one!!!

Why are so many women quick to accept these articifial "norms" for behavior and eventually become what society expects them to be?!?!

Why has a WOMAN (Sarah) brought up the fact that women get attached...

And MOST IMPORTANTLY, how do we tear down these constructs that have been in place for so long if even modern woman are content to accept them as "okay." ???

Vanessa said...

So anon, is it to be said that a woman that sleeps with every man she meets just has high self esteem?

That her self esteem is so freakin high that she feels like she NEEDS to share it with every member of the opposite sex...

Hmm.. somehow I dont think thats right.

Sarah said...

Do you remember this song?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZND3lg54QE

This argument goes way back...

Anonymous said...

no, vanessa, that's not what i'm saying.

i said: her self-esteem has nothing to do with her promiscuity. or conversely, her promiscuity has nothing to do with her self-esteem.

a woman should derive her self-esteem from her own personal goals, achievements, talents, accomplishments... from what SHE wants.

a woman should NOT derive self-esteem from what a MAN (or many men) might think of her, nor from what HE wants HER to BE.

after all, it is her SELF-esteem...

not HIS esteem of her.

Anonymous said...

No offense, and I usually like your posts, but I think this is one of the lamest arguments I've ever heard.

"Are women really whores if they have one nights stands?"

"What if it's their 'sexual appetite'?"

"It doesn't mean that they have low self-esteem just because they sleep around."

I mean....cmon guys, are we serious?

I guess it can be debated, but just looking at the responses and the thought processes behind this whole 'argument' it just seems....well...juvenile.

'sexual appetite'?
Creative wording Chrissie, but in order to fulfill your sexual appetite (not you directly, but men and women both) I think Sarah can contest to this one; you need to be in a stable and serious relationship.
You have to know that person inside and out, and you have to know what they like and don't like, and that includes sexually in order to get the full satisfaction.
When you connect with someone on a deeper level, your sexual experience is that much more rewarding and you actually enjoy it.
Drunken rabbit sex, or a 'friend with benefits' that comes over to watch a movie, then leaves after the act and only sees you for that one reason, doesn't seem too rewarding, beneficial, or respectful to anyone; especially the woman.

And yes...
contrary to some peoples belief, the women that put themselves out there are in fact lacking in self-esteem.

It isn't women conforming to what society expects out of them, it's women having respect for themselves and their bodies.

I don't know why women don't see sexual acts as more personal, after all, that is the most personal thing you can share with someone. It is something sacred that shouldn't be just flailed around like a flag.

Men too....
but men are pigs, and they speak and act only with their hormones, so that's where it is the womens job to show them what they can and cannot get away with.

If a woman shows that she is worth sex, and sex only then that's how the man is going to view her. If she shows respect for herself and shows that going to that level must be earned, then the outcome is that much better on all levels.

It's the difference between a man leaving your house at night and calling you in the morning.....

Or a man leaving your house in the early morning and calling you next weekend....

Women need to respect themselves and that's that.

Sarah said...

that was a LONG but insightful post!

I agree w/ you... sex should be sacred, sex is better when it's with someone you care about. Better yet, someone who LOVES you. Sex is not going to get that man to be your boyfriend if his intentions are purely physical. And I just don't believe that most WOMEN are in it for just sex. It might happen, but it's rare. You don't hear the phrase GIGOLA too often or EVER...

I don't agree that this topic shouldn't be discussed... The whole point is to get people stirring on the issues of relationships, and this is a SeXy ToPiC... I respect Chrissie for standing up for women who try to be a player in the game...
Because, yes, sometimes I wish I DID IT LIKE A BOY...

Chrissie said...

First, I did not use the word whore...

Secondly, I did not say "one night stand," I said, no strings attached sex, which could mean a friend, something that happens more than once between people who KNOW what they're doing... OR a one-night stand.

Thirdly, "And I think Sarah can attest to this one," implies that I know nothing of what it means to be in a stable relationship.

What I DO know of STABLE relationships (I had two that lasted 3 years or more each), is that just because you're "WITH" someone and in a "RELATIONSHIP," your "sexual appetite" IS NOT necessarily fulfilled.

And since when is no-strings sex just "drunken rabbit" sex or otherwise unfulfilled???

Can't sexual experiences with devoted partners be sort of "blah" once in awhile?

I think people can have VERY rewarding experiences with people they aren't with in a "real relationship." I think people can be physically attracted to people that they don't even actually LIKE in any other capacity.

I don't think this makes anyone a "whore" and I don't think it's always evidence of "low self-esteem" (although I'm sure sometimes it is).

Why can't you have respect for your body AND enjoy sex outside of a relationship? AGAIN, WHY DOES SEX DEFINE WHO WE ARE OR WHAT WE VALUE?

AND why does everyone think they are the experts on this issue (from both sides) rather than actually THINKING about the possibility that the way they learned it...
the way they do it...
might be w r o n g.

And I think it's also amusing, that when people don't agree, they completely mold the opposing argument in the most extreme way possible...

No strings attached sex turns into rampant promiscuity with multiple partners, "women sleeping with every man they know" on this blog...

It can't simply mean a single woman getting her kicks when she's still looking for "the one"???

Chrissie said...

And on another note...

Is it the SEX that's better with someone you care about... someone you know and "love," or is it the AFTER-SEX that's better?

I think it could all be linked back to the guilt factor.

If it were OKAY socially for women to enjoy no-strings sex, then perhaps it WOULD be fulfilling... even with Mr. What's-His-Name.

Maybe it's not the jack rabbits and the anonymity so much, as the emotional hangover that ensues afterward.

JUuuuuuuuuusssst maybe... the only "string" involved in this game is the one that links sex to guilt.

Sarah said...

"AGAIN, WHY DOES SEX DEFINE WHO WE ARE OR WHAT WE VALUE?"

I see it the opposite, I see it as one thing that does define someone, and what they value. I just wish it was the same way for guys.

Anonymous said...

to the "other" anon:

when you say...

"Drunken rabbit sex ... doesn't seem too rewarding ... or respectful to anyone; especially the woman."

"women that put themselves out there are in fact lacking in self-esteem."

"it's (about) women having respect for themselves and their bodies."

"I don't know why women don't see sexual acts as more personal..."

"it is the womens job to show (men) what they can and cannot get away with."

"If she shows respect for herself..."


don't you see that your putting all the weight of "sexual responsibility" on the woman's shoulders?

do you realize WHY you are doing this?

the reason WHY is my whole point.

this isn't about good sex, or bad sex, or "sacred" sex, or "deeper connection" sex, or sex with everybody you meet...

it's about whether SEX should measure a woman's worth.

and btw, you really shouldn't preface your argument by ridiculing other arguments with sarcastic statements like, "are we serious?" and "(this) just seems juvenile" and "creative wording"...

it doesn't make you look smarter. it doesn't bolster your argument. it doesn't make us feel stupid... or "juvenile".

it's just a very weak tool, used by very arrogant, stubborn, and weak minds that don't really want to take the time to consider the validity of what anybody else thinks.

Anonymous said...

The bottom line is this,,,, There are indeed women who sleep around due to a lack of self esteme becuase the crave the attention and feel a sense of approval and desired when they do... and there are also women who sleep around because the like it!!! Haven't we as a society learned yet that you can never catorgize an entire group of people especially women!!!!

Anonymous said...

well, actually, "what we've learned" as a society is what my comments are all about.

you're still focusing the relationship between sex and self-worth on women only.

would you ever say that a man sleeps around because he has low self-esteem???

i doubt it. and why? because of "what we've learned as a society".

women have absorbed these social expectations and, some women, measure their self-worth by them, most often in a negative context.

these are socially constructed, socially inspired feelings of inferiority and futility. that's the "bottom line".

Anonymous said...

Im not saying the society hasn't created many of the constructs regarding women and sex, but even so wether it would of occured naturally or if its due to society alone,, there are women you have promiscuous sex due to a lack of self esteme......right?? Im not saying that is right to assume all women who are promiscuous are, but its just as on fair for you to state that none of them do!!!

Jared said...

Anon, I don't think anyone would disagree that there is a general connection between low self esteem and sexual promiscuity in women, the problem is the implied cause-and-effect relationship between the two, as in "WHY would a confident woman with high self esteem need or want to have casual sex?" which is the idea that keeps repeating in these comments.

Anonymous said...

maybe a confident woman with high self esteem would want to have sex...

EVEN outside of a relationship...

because she is horny.

she's horny and she's single.

MAYBE she's even single because she IS a catch and she hasn't met a guy WORTHY of her yet.

but she's STILL HORNY.

Anonymous said...

just to make myself clear:

i never said there wasn't a correlation between a woman's sexual promiscuity and her self-esteem.

i'm just saying that at a deeper level there's a reason why this is so. there's a reason why "a woman's promiscuity" has such a negative connotation, and there's a reason why a man's doesn't.

that's all.

yes, i have been repeating myself... probably because i could fill pages articulating my point precisely, but in this forum there's only room for short and pithy comments, so i'm probably not making myself clear enough. and like chrissie pointed out, other comments have grossly distorted my argument, suggesting i think that "a woman who sleeps with every man she meets just has high self esteem", or that no promiscuous women have low self-esteem. and neither one of those is my point at all.



=) <-- a happy face for the beautiful day. now let's all frolic and have some sex.

Jared said...

It would probably be a lot easier to understand who is saying what if you people used a name instead of anonymous. Just pick one, you don't need to use your real name or register or give up your social security number or anything like that.

Anonymous said...

hmm... nah, i like anonymous. ya know, there was once a time when i was the ONLY anonymous commentator...

but that was a long time ago and it lasted only a week.

sprinter said...

Well... Let me add my two cents. Sex used to be called making love... AND Let's just say that there's no "love" making in casual sex. NONE! Do you really think the guy is going to ask the girl, "want to make love"... That's a joke! And I agree that the self esteem of the woman, young or older, goes in the toilet when she gives in to the his plea. horny or not!

The long ANON comment said...

Chrissie,
I apologize if me saying 'juvenile' or 'cmon guys' came off as harsh, rash, and actually just rude. I guess it's my personality to just come out and express how I feel not realizing how it's going to effect someone else, or how someone else might view it.
I wasn't directing it at you.

I've heard this argument before, so I guess it was something that I just lashed out on. I apologize. I wasn't trying to make an argument like that, or even make anyone feel stupid. Seriously, that's not my character and it wasn't my intention.

And I didn't mean that you don't know what it's like to be in a relationship, I just meant that Sarah is in one right now and she can CURRENTLY contest to what I am saying.

Listen.....

Everyone has their own views, just like everyone likes to create their own God. That's the society we live in, and that's also the type of government we have.
Everyone has a different opinion and everyone is entitled to speak their mind (hence blogging and commenting ;) )

Now I don't take back anything I say (with the exception of the word 'juvenile') and no matter how 'horny' a girl might get or what her certain views might be, I stand firmly by what I said.

And the reason why I put so much pressure and responsibility on the women, is because in essence the women are the ones in control, especially with regards to this situation.
And I just think it's shows class and respect when a woman holds out until a guy can prove that he's worth being part of that intimate part of her being.

Chrissie said...

What about the GUILT factor... why has no one touched on my idea that women don't feel "bad" after casual sex because of the sex itself, but rather because society imposes GUILT on them for "enjoying" it.

H20 said...

Chrissie is RIGHT!! :0